By Sparkle Abbey
Please welcome our friend and fellow author, Joel W. Barrows to the blog today. Joel is a member of our local Sisters in Crime – Iowa chapter and we’ve mostly conversed via Zoom but recently had the opportunity to meet in person at a fun writers’ retreat – Only Books in the Building – and share some great conversation around a toasty fire with some of the other featured authors.
Before we jump in with our questions, Joel, please share a little bit about yourself.
JB: I am the author of the Deep Cover thrillers published by Down & Out Books. I was born and raised in small town Iowa, though have lived in several larger cities over the years: Des Moines, St. Louis, Washington D.C. … Now, I’m back in Iowa, living in the Quad Cities, where I work as a district court judge. Besides writing, I enjoy boating and playing the guitar.
SA: Thanks! And now on to our first question. What started you on your writing journey?
JB: My wife always wanted to be a writer. Her father was a newspaper editor. She knew I was a bit of a storyteller, like my father. When she read a reference letter I had written for a friend, she suggested I try my hand at writing. One day, after I went on a rant about Big Pharma and what they might be capable of, she said, “that sounds like a good idea for a book.” I went upstairs to the computer. Two days later I had a 15-page outline for my first book, The Drug Lords, a romantic suspense thriller.
SA: And that leads us to another question. What do you write? And why did you choose that genre?
JB: I write about domestic terrorism organizations and the undercover operatives who combat them. I think this is the issue of our time. Many of the books also deal with racism and political issues. They say write what you know. My career has been in law enforcement as a state and federal prosecutor and as a judge. This is an area I know.
SA: It certainly is and your experience undoubtedly accounts for the realistic details in your books! What about the writing process? What’s your favorite part of writing?
JB: Inventing characters and writing good dialogue. I have always been a student of the way people communicate, verbally and nonverbally. Other than that, creating the tension.
SA: Characters and dialogue rank up there as favorite parts of the creative process for us as well. So, what’s your least favorite part?
JB: Really, I enjoy the whole process, though I suppose the research is my least favorite part. But even then, there are aspects of it that enjoy. Outlining can also be a challenge, and it is definitely not my strong suit!
SA: Partly because we work as co-authors, we have to do quite a bit of planning when we start a project. How about you? How much do you plan before you start a book?
JB: I develop a basic story idea and spend a month or two fleshing it out and doing research. I might then outline the very basic structure of the book. After that, I kind of just let the characters lead me.
SA: Where do your best ideas come from?
JB: My own experiences, the many law enforcement officers, agents and prosecutors I’ve worked with, and the news.
SA: It seems like some parts of the process come easy for us and others are more of a struggle. What part of writing is the most difficult for you to write? Characters? Conflict? Emotion? Or something else…?
JB: I probably don’t spend enough time on setting, which is something I’m working on.
SA: What’s next? Are you currently working on a new book?
JB: The working title for the next book is “Deep Orange Cover: The Allegiance.” Let’s just say it involves a very gritty and frightening look at outlaw motorcycle clubs and some of their many illegal undertakings. I promise, it will grab and keep your attention!
SA: Having read your other books, we’re sure that it will! Thanks for talking with us today. We appreciate your time and we will watch for that next book!
Thanks again, Joel. Please check out the links below for more info about Joel and his books!
Website
Facebook
Amazon Author Page
Publisher
Sparkle Abbey is actually two people, Mary Lee Ashford and Anita Carter, who write the national best-selling Pampered Pets cozy mystery series. They are friends as well as neighbors so they often get together and plot ways to commit murder. (But don’t tell the other neighbors.)
They love to hear from readers and can be found on Facebook, Goodreads, and Pinterest, some of their favorite social media sites. Also, if you want to make sure you get updates, sign up for their newsletter via the SparkleAbbey.com website
Differences in People and Writing Styles
/in Debra H. Goldstein, Writing and the Arts/by DebraDifferences in People and Writing Styles by Debra H. Goldstein
Recently, I flew to Denver for a very special reason: to meet my newest grandson. Because of my March back surgeries, I couldn’t be there within twenty-four hours of his birth. Instead, I had to settle for a few days shy of him being two months old. It was a treat for several reasons. He’s a very easy and seemingly happy child. He eats, sleeps, cuddles, smiles, and loves bathtime. What more could his parents ask?
Well, they wouldn’t mind getting a little more sleep themselves – not because of him but because of his twenty-month-old sister who has decided that rather than sleeping to seven or seven-thirty, wake up time is somewhere between four-thirty and five. She also isn’t too thrilled with naptime which makes for a grumpy over-tired child by dinner time. Did I mention that she is, and has always been, a finicky eater? Or, that she has always had a mind of her own. For example, she refused to roll over well beyond when she should have been doing that; however, she proved at the same time she could sit up perfectly (which proved she had core control and was simply refusing to roll). If she wasn’t so cute, she’d be a frustrating child.
What’s my point? These two are siblings. They were born from the same parents into an identical environment and yet, they are so different. Writers are much the same. They all start out wanting to write, but their works are like night and day. Even if they write in the same genre, whether mystery or literary, their books and stories are unique. Some writers may try to copy the style of other authors they admire, but the reality is that the end product always differs.
Aren’t you glad? What would it be like if people and authors were all cut from the same cookie-cutter?
Rejection
/in Author Life, author promotion, humor, Marketing/by Bethany MainesRejection is Knocking
Part of any creative endeavor that gets shared with the public is rejection. I understand that not every person will love my creative projects. And I even get that somewhere out there is someone who hates my books and art. In fact, I kind of hope there is. I would like to have a nemesis who howls with rage every time I put out another book. After all, if I’m not sparking unnatural fury in the heart of someone, what am I even doing with my life? However, hatred would be welcome compared to the banal everyday “meh” of rejection.
Thanks, but no thanks…
I would not care to count up the number of rejection letters and emails I have received over my career, but I would guess that it’s in the hundreds. And by and large, most of them are a polite form of “it’s not for me.” There have been many that have been intentionally or unintentionally condescending. “You’re doing so well” is not the compliment some people think it is. Many people (particularly those under 30) seem compelled to offer tips and suggestions rather than stating why they personally did not accept something. There’s a big difference between “you should work on your hook” and “I couldn’t see how I would sell this in the current marketplace. I needed a something to more strongly differentiate it.” One tells me why you rejected it, the other sounds like I suck as a writer. (You may say that is a slight misinterpretation, but my brain does not believe you.)
So why sign up for rejection?
Because the risk is worth the reward. And, of course, there are the corgi memes. And after the first fifty, the polite “no thank you” rejections don’t sting quite so much and you can move on to ice cream, alcohol, and burning the really crappy rejections. And as much as I hate to admit, the rejections have helped me become a better writer. Admittedly, they’re a bit like following street signs in a foreign language as I try to decipher what exactly they mean, but they still give some clues. Right now, I have two projects out to various entities and I’m crossing my fingers that they don’t try to send me searching down the back alleyways to self-improvement. I’d much rather they went with a large flashing sign that says “I love it!” But just in case, I’ll keep the desserts, memes and cocktails at the ready.
***
Bethany Maines is the award-winning author of action-adventure and fantasy tales that focus on women who know when to apply lipstick and when to apply a foot to someone’s hind end. She participates in many activities including swearing, karate, art, and yelling at the news. She can usually be found chasing after her daughter, or glued to the computer working on her next novel (or screenplay). You can also catch up with her on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and BookBub.
Do You Suffer from Food on the Brain?
/in Author Life, Cozy Mysteries, Desserts, Gluttony, humor, Mystery, Mystery Series, Secret Passions, women sleuths/by Gay YellenConfession time here. It has taken me years to admit this, but here goes: I am a foodaholic.
I love food, and I think about it almost every hour of the day.
My addiction began in the early days of writing the Samantha Newman Mystery Series. I didn’t recognize the issue until several readers complained that the food scenes in the stories made them hungry.
I was forced to look inward.
Truth is, I never intended to put so much food in my books, but as it turns out, I’ve unintentionally given my personal cravings to Samantha Newman, who loves food as much as I do. And apparently, readers may suffer from the same affliction.
Food on the brain
That’s what I suffer from when I write. I’m thinking about what to snack on right now, just like I did a few minutes ago, and an hour earlier, too. Like an alcoholic trying to fend off the urge, I’m always jonesing for something in the pantry.
Carter Chapman’s a man who knows his way around the kitchen, too. He can turn out a perfectly juicy Texas T-bone, or a from-scratch pasta sauce that makes Samatha swoon. And for breakfast, he serves up an awesome batch of pancakes. OMG, the pancakes!
There I go again… where was I?
Can’t help myself, I suppose. The good news is, as long as my food fantasies remain in my books, my readers and I can enjoy them calorie-free. Just don’t open that pantry.
Does reading about food make you hungry?
Gay Yellen is the author of the multi-award-winning Samantha Newman Mysteries include The Body Business, The Body Next Door, and The Body in the News!
Contact her at GayYellen.com
Can a Book Effect Change?
/in Donnell Ann Bell, Inspiration, Linda Rodriguez, Publishing, Racism, T.K. Thorne, The Stiletto Gang, Writing and the Arts/by Donnell Ann BellI respect Linda Rodriguez and TK Thorne immensely. If you haven’t read their two recent blogs, I urge you to do so:
https://www.thestilettogang.com/2024/07/05/how-can-writers-help-creat-a-safer-society-for-all/
https://www.thestilettogang.com/2024/06/27/we-are-perplexing-by-t-k-thorne/
In these blogs, T.K. addresses our relatively young existence in the grand scheme of existence, then writes about humankind’s struggle to fight tribalism and inhumanity. Linda addresses violent massacres against innocents brought on by hatred and racism.
Linda closes out her blog with:
“As writers and readers, we have the power to change this terrible racist rot at the heart of our society. We simply have to muster the courage to insist on truthful, varied portrayals of real human beings, the courage to reach outside of segregated suburbs to learn about people who are not just like us, the courage to call out false, bigoted remarks and portrayals when we encounter them. Let us be part of the solution and no longer part of the problem, actively or passively. Let us bring our society closer to the ideals we claim for it.
Writers shape the way our nation sees the world. Let us shape that perspective with truth and empathy.”
The blog unfortunately didn’t allow for comments, and I had a few. I also was reading a novel at that time that if Linda’s blog had been an assignment to discover such a panacea, I would recommend David Baldacci’s A Calamity of Souls.
Before I give my thoughts on A Calamity of Souls, I’ll point to what I consider a significant problem(s) in Linda’s thoughtful prose.
Occasionally, an author pens a book that does just what Linda is encouraging us to do. Moreover, that same author has name recognition and a following that may in effect, educate and allow people who may not even consider themselves racist to take the proverbial good look in the mirror.
I believe David Baldacci’s A Calamity of Souls is such a book. I believe this novel may be fated to become a classic in its own right and his most successful of his already thriving career.
Though brilliant A Calamity of Souls is not a fun read. It’s also incredibly hard to put down.
Here’s the back cover blurb:
Jack Lee is a white lawyer from Freeman County, Virginia, who has never done anything to push back against racism, until he decides to represent Jerome Washington, a Black man charged with brutally killing an elderly and wealthy white couple. Doubting his decision, Lee fears that his legal skills may not be enough to prevail in a case where the odds are already stacked against both him and his client. And he quickly finds himself out of his depth when he realizes that what is at stake is far greater than the outcome of a murder trial.
Desiree DuBose is a Black lawyer from Chicago who has devoted her life to furthering the causes of justice and equality for everyone. She comes to Freeman County and enters a fractious and unwieldy partnership with Lee in a legal battle against the best prosecutor in the Commonwealth. Yet DuBose is also aware that powerful outside forces are at work to blunt the victories achieved by the Civil Rights era.
Lee and DuBose could not be more dissimilar. On their own, neither one can stop the prosecution’s deliberate march towards a guilty verdict and the electric chair. But together, the pair fight for what once seemed impossible: a chance for a fair trial and true justice.
Over a decade in the writing, A Calamity of Souls breathes richly imagined and detailed life into a bygone era, taking the reader through a world that will seem both foreign and familiar.
(I pulled the following quotes off Amazon.)
~~~
I could leave my own review, but I guess I just did. A #1 Bestseller with already 16,671 ratings on Amazon, I recommend A Calamity of Souls to everyone to understand what ignorance is and what hate can become.
Thank you, Linda. Your words impacted me at a time I was already being deeply impacted. I can only pray your vision and dreams come true.
Can a book effect change? In a word, Yes.
How Can Writers Help Create a Safer Society for All?
/in Uncategorized/by DebraHow Can Writers Help Create a Safer Society for All? by Linda Rodriguez In 2015, Dylann Roof murdered nine innocent people at a church prayer meeting in Charleston, South Carolina, and was later sentenced to death. This brought back the horror of so many racist mass murders before and since. It tied into a concurrent […]
Guest Interview with Author Joel W. Barrows
/in Author Life, Interview, Mystery, Suspense/by Mary Lee AshfordBy Sparkle Abbey
Please welcome our friend and fellow author, Joel W. Barrows to the blog today. Joel is a member of our local Sisters in Crime – Iowa chapter and we’ve mostly conversed via Zoom but recently had the opportunity to meet in person at a fun writers’ retreat – Only Books in the Building – and share some great conversation around a toasty fire with some of the other featured authors.
JB: I am the author of the Deep Cover thrillers published by Down & Out Books. I was born and raised in small town Iowa, though have lived in several larger cities over the years: Des Moines, St. Louis, Washington D.C. … Now, I’m back in Iowa, living in the Quad Cities, where I work as a district court judge. Besides writing, I enjoy boating and playing the guitar.
SA: Thanks! And now on to our first question. What started you on your writing journey?
JB: My wife always wanted to be a writer. Her father was a newspaper editor. She knew I was a bit of a storyteller, like my father. When she read a reference letter I had written for a friend, she suggested I try my hand at writing. One day, after I went on a rant about Big Pharma and what they might be capable of, she said, “that sounds like a good idea for a book.” I went upstairs to the computer. Two days later I had a 15-page outline for my first book, The Drug Lords, a romantic suspense thriller.
SA: And that leads us to another question. What do you write? And why did you choose that genre?
JB: I write about domestic terrorism organizations and the undercover operatives who combat them. I think this is the issue of our time. Many of the books also deal with racism and political issues. They say write what you know. My career has been in law enforcement as a state and federal prosecutor and as a judge. This is an area I know.
SA: It certainly is and your experience undoubtedly accounts for the realistic details in your books! What about the writing process? What’s your favorite part of writing?
JB: Inventing characters and writing good dialogue. I have always been a student of the way people communicate, verbally and nonverbally. Other than that, creating the tension.
SA: Characters and dialogue rank up there as favorite parts of the creative process for us as well. So, what’s your least favorite part?
JB: Really, I enjoy the whole process, though I suppose the research is my least favorite part. But even then, there are aspects of it that enjoy. Outlining can also be a challenge, and it is definitely not my strong suit!
SA: Partly because we work as co-authors, we have to do quite a bit of planning when we start a project. How about you? How much do you plan before you start a book?
JB: I develop a basic story idea and spend a month or two fleshing it out and doing research. I might then outline the very basic structure of the book. After that, I kind of just let the characters lead me.
SA: Where do your best ideas come from?
JB: My own experiences, the many law enforcement officers, agents and prosecutors I’ve worked with, and the news.
SA: It seems like some parts of the process come easy for us and others are more of a struggle. What part of writing is the most difficult for you to write? Characters? Conflict? Emotion? Or something else…?
JB: I probably don’t spend enough time on setting, which is something I’m working on.
SA: What’s next? Are you currently working on a new book?
JB: The working title for the next book is “Deep Orange Cover: The Allegiance.” Let’s just say it involves a very gritty and frightening look at outlaw motorcycle clubs and some of their many illegal undertakings. I promise, it will grab and keep your attention!
SA: Having read your other books, we’re sure that it will! Thanks for talking with us today. We appreciate your time and we will watch for that next book!
Thanks again, Joel. Please check out the links below for more info about Joel and his books!
Website
Facebook
Amazon Author Page
Publisher
Sparkle Abbey is actually two people, Mary Lee Ashford and Anita Carter, who write the national best-selling Pampered Pets cozy mystery series. They are friends as well as neighbors so they often get together and plot ways to commit murder. (But don’t tell the other neighbors.)
They love to hear from readers and can be found on Facebook, Goodreads, and Pinterest, some of their favorite social media sites. Also, if you want to make sure you get updates, sign up for their newsletter via the SparkleAbbey.com website
Clicking Our Heels: Author Cravings
/in Author Life, Gluttony, Uncategorized/by DebraWe often hear about food cravings in reference to pregnant women and children, but what authors would die for isn’t usually mentioned. Today, Clicking Our Heels tells you what each of us considers our favorite snack or drink.
Bethany Maines – Matcha lattes and chocolate covered almonds.
Barbara J. Eikmeier – Hot green tea in the morning then I switch to water.
Saralyn Richard – Icy cold water in the summer and boiling hot water in winter. Sometimes popcorn, but only if the writing is slow.
Debra H. Goldstein – Pizza.
Dru Ann Love – My favorite snack is Twizzlers and drink is water.
T.K. Thorne – Anything that will distract me from putting words down, but I usually start with a cup of coffee or tea.
Lois Winston – Coffee, coffee, and more coffee!
Gay Yellen – I don’t snack as I write, but after a solid hour or two of desk-sitting, almost anything handy works for me—chips and hummus, or a cookie and another cup of coffee.
Donnell Ann Bell – My favorite writing snack depends on my mood. Am I trying to eat heathy or am I having a carb attack. I keep cooked broccoli spears in my fridge when I’m on a health kick. When I crave carbs, all bets are off. Chips and salsa, or a bowl of cereal are not safe from my clutches!
Debra Sennefelder – Coffee.
Anita Carter – I like to drink a hot chai latte when I sit down to start writing. When I’m super focused and the words are flowing, I’m usually chewing gum – Orbit White Spearmint. For some reason, chewing gum helps me stay focused.
Mary Lee Ashford – My favorite writing drink is tea. Hot or cold depending on the season (or the day) and sometimes with a bit of honey. Snacks are hard when you’re writing because you don’t want to gunk up the keyboard. So, my go to is usually nuts and/or dark chocolate.
WHAT DO YOU WRITE?
/in characters, Detective, History, Ideas, Mystery, Mystery Series, New Release, Novels, Series, Susan P. Baker, The Stiletto Gang, Uncategorized/by Susan P. BakerMy new novel, The Underground Murders, was released yesterday, July 1, 2024. Do you write (or read) political novels? Or novels that contain even a bit of a political message? Or novels that address societal concerns? Or novels that are pure entertainment? I chose the subject of my latest novel with the intent of speaking out against the direction in which our country headed and knowing there would be backlash. I’ve already received a tongue lashing from one of my advance readers. I’m hoping she, at least, gave some thought to the issue, that her mind, which probably wouldn’t be opened, would get a small crack. Since the book only arrived on the scene yesterday, I’m waiting to see who else protests.
In some of my novels in the past, I’ve included (in addition to murder) gambling addiction, false allegations of child abuse, child trafficking, greed, adultery, characters with a sense of entitlement, judicial corruption, mental illness, theft—well, basically, my characters breaking all Ten Commandments!
History is replete with nursery rhymes that have been interpreted as political commentary or as a rendering of historical events. At https://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com/ many authors give their interpretations of historical pieces. I particularly liked Author Lucinda Brant’s Part Two about nursery rhymes including “Georgy Porgy” and “Jack and Jill.”
Fairy tales were another way authors expressed themselves. A nice piece that discusses how fairy tales can be used as teaching tools today can be found at https://www.kidsbookhaven.com/article/exploring-relevance-of-fairy-tales-in-todays-world. There is also discussion about how they form the basis for so many current books and movies.
At https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/03061973241241877, there is a book review of Buried Treasures: The Political Power of Fairy Tales by Jack Zipes. Zipes discusses social ills, to put it mildly, and who the authors often were.
I’m a fan of John Sandford and his “Prey” novels. I was pleased to find he addressed environmental problems in his latest novel Toxic Prey, where the protagonists hunt down a mad scientist who believes the violent actions he intends to take will save the planet
It’s 2024 in the U.S. So far we still have the right to free speech. For the most part, we have the right to write what we want, unlike authors in some countries and those in history. I believe it’s my duty to address modern society’s ills. Though there is no guarantee what I write will be read, I fully intend to continue to write as my conscience dictates. If only a few readers will have their eyes opened, I will have accomplished my goal.
Susan P. Baker is a retired family court judge from Texas and the author of 15 published books. You may read more about her at https://www.susanpbaker.com.
Christmas in July: Bringing Holiday Cheer to Your Summer Reading
/in Uncategorized/by Debra SennefelderWelcome to the enchanting world of Christmas in July, a delightful time to infuse your summer with a sprinkle of holiday magic. For reader, this is the perfect season to blend the warmth of Christmas with the sun-drenched days of summer. This year I’m all in on Christmas in July and I think it has to do with the fact that I’ve just turned in the next Food Blogger mystery and it’s set during Christmas and I’m beginning the planning of the book’s release so my thoughts are definitely very merry. I thought today I’d share with you some tips to help you bring a little holiday festivity into your summer reading. Ready?
Create a Cozy Reading Nook:
Transform a corner of your home into a festive retreat. Drape twinkling fairy lights, add some holiday-themed pillows, and keep a cozy blanket nearby. Surround yourself with the scents of Christmas by lighting a pine-scented candle or simmering a pot of cinnamon and cloves.
Choose Festive Reads:
Dive into holiday-themed cozy mysteries and romantic suspense novels. Titles like “A Christmas Cozy Mystery” or “Snowy Nights of Romance” can transport you to a winter wonderland. The mix of mystery and romance will keep you turning pages, no matter the temperature outside.
Holiday Treats and Drinks:
Enjoy your reading with a side of festive treats. Bake some gingerbread cookies, make hot cocoa (or iced cocoa if it’s too warm), and indulge in peppermint-flavored snacks. The familiar tastes and smells will heighten your holiday experience.
Host a Christmas in July Book Club:
Gather your friends for a virtual book club. Pick a Christmas-themed mystery or romance, and discuss it over a video call. Add some holiday trivia games or a secret Santa book exchange to enhance the festive spirit.
Festive Soundtrack:
Create a playlist of your favorite Christmas carols and background music. Listening to holiday tunes while you read can make the experience even more immersive.
There you have it, five tips on how to bring a little Christmas charm into July into your summer reading. If you’d like some more Christmas in July inspiration, check out my website’s blog where I’ll be sharing a weekly guide to the Hallmark movies and some cozy mystery recommendations to pair with those movies. Let me know what you’re reading this month in the comments below. I hope you have wonderful July and be sure to stay cool!
Debra Sennefelder is the author of the Food Blogger Mystery series and the Resale Boutique Mystery series.
She lives and writes in Connecticut. When she’s not writing, she enjoys baking, exercising and taking long walks with her Shih-Tzu, Connie.
You can keep in touch with Debra through her website, on Facebook and Instagram.
Don’t Count On It!
/in Artificial Intelligence, Brooke Terpening/by Brooke TerpeningEnough about Artificial Intelligence already. I promised myself I wouldn’t write about AI again. Then a friend shared a recent experience. She planned to drive her granddaughter from Denver, Colorado to Buffalo, New York and wanted to take in some of the sights along the way. After learning about ChatGPT at the local library, she asked for a route and roadside attractions along I-80. ChatGPT obliged with stops to “provide a mix of natural beauty, historical sites, and cultural experiences, making your journey along I-80 from Denver to Buffalo diverse and enjoyable.” Sounds wonderful, right?
Don’t get me wrong. I think the Bonneville Salt Flats, Salt Lake City’s Temple Square, Wyoming Territorial Prison, and the California Trail Interpretive Center in Elko, Nevada are fascinating and educational. The only problem: all these sights would require a 1,000 mile detour! My favorite attraction was the world’s largest Cheeto in Algona, Iowa, which was a mere four hour excursion off I-80. Other attractions didn’t exist, such as the world’s largest fork in Iowa. On the bright side, ChatGPT didn’t route my friend through Outer Mongolia.
AI developers acknowledge that the software will hallucinate—produce incorrect or fabricated information. So why do these hallucinations matter to us as writers? “Real facts” are important when writing our book. While it seems obvious that non-fiction must be as accurate as possible, fiction readers crave more than only entertainment. They want to come away from our books learning about an era, a career, a technology, or a culture they weren’t familiar with. Fans of police procedural or historical novels are quick to point out that a certain type of pistol only has six, not nine, rounds or buttonholes weren’t widely used prior to the Renaissance.
My friend isn’t alone in getting bad advice from ChatGPT. Ask the lawyers who were sanctioned for submitting AI generated briefs citing nonexistent cases. Or the scientific journal that issued a retraction for an article filled with nonsense illustrations.
My advice: if you use AI, don’t count on the results without independent verification. That’s the safer route my friend took.